Why would anyone keep working after retirement?

A Q&A with Ruth Gotian, author of The Success Factor

I’ll be honest: I wouldn’t have picked up The Success Factor from the book cover alone. Those arrows pointing right and up? The subtitle: “Developing the mindset and skillset for peak business performance”? That’s for corporate managers chasing their next promotion, I thought. Or maybe for athletes training for a championship. Not for me!

But this column by the book’s author, Ruth Gotian, in the journal Nature last month, piqued my attention. Success can be learned, she wrote, adding that the first key to the success of high-achieving scientists is intrinsic motivation:

Ruth Gotian, author of *The Success Factor*

I have found that, in general, scientists are not driven by ‘extrinsic motivators’: promotions, accolades, diplomas or awards. [...] many leading scientists are still doing research long after they qualify for retirement. They simply love it — the pursuit of the unknown; being on the cusp of something transformative; the challenge of seeing where their curiosity will take them.

That got me thinking—not only because intrinsic motivation is the bread-and-butter of this newsletter, but also because I know many researchers up close, from my personal life and my work as a science journalist.

Sure, most scientists don’t choose their careers for cash and glory; that would be a long shot. And yes, they have the tenacity to seek answers to vast and/or super specific questions. Still, researchers also spend decades paying attention to external markers of approval: from peer-reviewed article submissions and citations to grant applications, through to conference invitations, career assessments, etc.

But Gotian, who is also chief learning officer and assistant professor of education in anesthesiology at Weill Cornell Medical College in the United States, says that—from her detailed interviews with Nobel Prize winners, top physician-scientists, as well as Olympic champions and NBA players—it is not the extrinsic motivation that fuels them.

She kindly agreed to share more insights from her discussions with high-achievers. Here’s a write-up of our conversation, edited for brevity and clarity.

For whom did you write the book?

I don't discriminate. I really feel that there are people in the world who [wonder]: Why is it that certain people are succeeding, but I have not? What is it that they have that I don't have? And it's not about being born into the right family. It's not about getting the right degree from the right school. [...] The people whom I interviewed came from a variety of backgrounds. What is important to recognize is that they made their own opportunities, took advantage of opportunities that came before them and they were more afraid of not trying than failing.

How do you define success?

The definition of success that I used was: these are people who have created a paradigm shift in the way we do things, think about things, or process things. Our world is different because of them. But also, as they ascended, they brought other people up with them. When they have reached incredible success, however you define it, they made sure to pay it forward, either mentoring people one-on-one or developing large programmes. [...] These are not people who are rich and famous for having a reality show.

Do you have an example?

Yes. Bob Lefkowitz won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 2012. [...] When he got that early morning phone call [announcing the prize], he had just one question: Who am I sharing it with? And it turns out the person he shared the Nobel Prize with is one of his former mentees [Brian Kobilka]. And he said there is no better feeling than knowing that you were sharing the Nobel Prize with someone you helped train. He has trained and mentored over 200 people so far.

Charlie Camarda is an astronaut. He flew right after the Columbia disaster [In 2003, the U.S. Space Shuttle Columbia disintegrated as it reentered the atmosphere, killing all seven crew members.]. [...] He was adamant that these kinds of tragedies never happen again. And in order to do that, we have to get people to think more creatively and understand that it's okay to fail early and often, so that you don't fail big later, in a way that ruins lives. After he retired from NASA, when he could have been sitting on the beach, he created a foundation and now teaches hundreds of children all over the world to take risks early and often.

So great to see astronaut Dr. @CharlieCamarda with my book, The Success Factor.

Dr. Camarda flew on the Return to Flight mission, right after the Columbia disaster. His story, which is featured in the book, is one of bravery that is not to be missed.#TheSuccessFactor #success pic.twitter.com/4NfedTCiLf
— Ruth (Ginsburg) Gotian, EdD, MS (@RuthGotian) February 14, 2022

Couldn’t trying to emulate people with extraordinary abilities or stories set us up for disappointment?

It's more about emulating mindsets, not copying habits, because our lives are different, right? If all the high achievers wake up at 5am, that does not mean you need to wake up at 5am. That's not going to work for you if you're a night owl. But what we can learn from these extreme high achievers is that they leverage their peak performance hours.

When I approached these people saying, You came up on my grid as a high achiever, I'd like to interview you, they said, I am? They don't see themselves that way. The goal was never the Nobel Prize; the goal was to do great science. I asked the Olympians at the end of every interview: Can you show me your medal? Only two of them had it on display. I thought they'd have a trophy room! [...] One had it under the bed, one of them had it in a brown paper bag in the sock drawer. I thought that was fascinating. The medal is nice to have, but it is more about the journey.

How do you know that those four elements—intrinsic motivation, perseverance, strong foundation and continuous informal learning—caused your interviewees’ success?

This was a qualitative research project. There were interviews, coding, and frequency theme analysis that were conducted. These were the four factors that all the high achievers had.

You say that intrinsic motivation is the first important component of success. At the same time, you write about the importance of navigating the “hidden curriculum”. Could you explain this?

The intrinsic motivation piece is: you're going to do something because you have to, this is why you were put on this earth, you cannot not do it. And you're not doing it because of the awards or recognitions or promotions, that's external, right? That is extrinsic motivation. And when other people are judging you, it's just hard to sustain that long term. So you really need to find a way to light and ignite that intrinsic motivation and then pour fuel on it.

But there is also what's called a hidden curriculum, meaning there are things that you need to do in order to get by. So scientists, for example, faculty, we need to write papers and get grants and give presentations. There's sort of a decorum of how that is done, how we behave, how we talk to one another.

How do you square that need to fit in, to adapt to unspoken rules, and the paradigm-shifting motivation that doesn't care about those rules?

It is so challenging, and I think it's extremely challenging for women and underrepresented groups: I need to fit in and stand out all at the same time. Doing those papers, those presentations, those grants, and trying to do it better than anyone else. How do you do that? What works here in New York, I don't know if it would work in Barcelona or in Iowa. Every organization has a different culture, expectations, traditions.

You say that finding what motivates us intrinsically starts with trying out different things. Then you mention strategies that have to do with other people: surrounding ourselves with people who are smarter than us; finding role models.

Successful people always try to be the least interesting person in the room. If everyone's the same as you, you're going to be hearing the same thing over and over again. But if you surround yourself with people who are different, you will learn something new, you will start making connections that other people don't see. Maybe a problem that you're facing now has already been solved in another organization or another industry. And that's why you need the touch points of other people, so that you can start making those connections on your own.

How about your advice to find your tribe?

That's like a community of practice. It could be an email listserv, a private Facebook group, a conference, a monthly dinner. It can be for academic mothers, or accountants in New York, or professional athletes in the northeast. There's really no limit to how you can slice and dice that, but it's all about having a common thread. You really need the juxtaposition of both people who are like you, for the empathy, maybe collaborations, as well as being surrounded by people who are different than you.

You quote [Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and Chief Medical Advisor to the President of the United States] Anthony Fauci, as saying he's drawn to things that he finds important, not just interesting. But isn’t intrinsic motivation about following your curiosity and interest, even if it doesn’t seem important to the rest of the world?

Well, yes and no. So first there is that interest, right? Oh, this is cool. Oh, this is a shiny new toy. Oh, let me check this out. And all of a sudden, you can't let it go. Then you see the ripple effect it can have, the impact on other people.

In the book, I talk about Janice Lintz, whose daughter was diagnosed with hearing loss [and who became an advocate for hearing access]. Her interest was to help her daughter, right, that was her intrinsic motivation. It could have ended with getting her daughter hearing aids, but it didn't. She took it to the next level, she went from interesting to important. She is changing the world for people with hearing loss. She is creating access for those people in New York City taxis and Delta terminals and Apple stores and the national parks and museums all over the world.

That idea of purpose can seem intimidating. What if I do one thing that interests me, and then another thing, without a big, shining beacon?

It’s all about the small goals, as opposed to the big goal. [...] Don't worry about your goal in 10 years, what is your next goal? And what are you doing to achieve that goal? And how will you recognise it when you see it? It's so important to celebrate the small wins along the way.

The mistake is that you think that your purpose can't change over time. And I think it can change. In fact, I know it can. I started my career in business and finance; I used to work in banking. I then switched to higher [education] administration and operations. And now I'm on the faculty and I wrote a book. Passions change!

I went back to school later in life, I was 43, and I was still working full time. Even after I got my doctorate, I thought I was done [with studying success]. But it really created something that I just couldn't let go of. I was like: And what about in this industry? And what about in that industry? [...] I'm going to ride this out until I don't feel that it's my calling anymore.

For more insights into the wonderful world of Intrinsic Motivation and the reasons we do the things we do, sign up for Tania’s Why Would Anyone newsletter on Substack. It’s free!